Corpse Run 694: The secret ingredient
Ok, I’m going to talk about Zelda: Breath of the Wild.
…like a lot.
BREATH OF THE WILD SPOILERS READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!
Due to there being a bit of a snowstorm on Tuesday, our office was closed and I spent the entire day playing BotW. I happened to finish the main campaign.
All told, I did the four Divine Beasts, about 30 or so Shrines, and found a negligible number of Korok seeds.
I was also severely disappointed.
For all the hype I had coming into this game, and for all the fun I was genuinely having when I started playing, I was so pumped because I thought BotW’s super cool open world was also going to have traditional Zelda dungeons.
The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild has zero dungeons.
Zero.
“But Alex, that’s hyperbole!” you say, “BotW has tons of dungeons!”
I disagree. Breath of the Wild has a huge amount of Shrines, which are more or less one room puzzles, one room fights, or one room with literally a chest and that’s it. Those are not dungeons and anyone who tells you otherwise is frankly being dishonest.
“But Alex, that’s hyperbole!” you say, “BotW has the four Divine Beast dungeons!”
Couple of things about that.
First off, I’ve spent a long time lambasting Majora’s Mask and Wind Waker for essentially having only four dungeons. In the interest of being consistent, even if I considered the Divine Beasts to be actual dungeons, only four is not enough.
As for the Divine Beasts themselves, let’s be honest here, they suck. They suck hard. They can be completed in any order and as such they are incredibly simple. So simple that they can all be beat in five to ten minutes if you know what you’re doing.
When Rich and I race Ocarina of Time, even though we know how to complete all the dungeons in advance, they still take a while. BotW’s Divine Beasts are less like dungeons and more like speedbumps.
A dungeon needs to be memorable. Everyone remembers the Water Temple. Everyone remembers the creepy Forest Temple, or the Palace of Twilight, or the Arbiter’s Grounds, or the back in time Pirate Ship thing. All of those dungeons had a unique look and numerous clever puzzles.
The Divine Beasts… all you do is activate five switches in each one. That’s it… no keys, no boss key, no item to find, nothing.
Even more problematic, they all look exactly the same. When you’re inside these things the design is not just similar, it’s basically identical. Without more than a passing glance, you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the inside of the Water Beast from the Fire Beast, or the Wind Beast from the Desert Beast.
That’s… well, frankly… that’s lazy. I get that they’re mechanical monsters so how different could they be, but… geeeze they’re same-y and boring to boot.
Each dungeon in the other Zelda games had unique dungeon design and they could instantly be told apart from each other.
I can’t believe I even had to type that. Obviously dungeons should be unique and be able to be told apart from each other. Somehow, Breath of the Wild didn’t get that memo.
As a function of the Divine Beasts having no unique items to find, the puzzles themselves are super bare bones, many of which can be cheesed through. Each dungeon rewards Link with a special ability upon completion. By the merest accident of choosing to walk in this particular direction, the Wind Beast was my first win. For my meager efforts I was granted the ability to jump fifty feet in the air and instantly pull out my para-glider…
…which I then used to jump over most of the puzzles in the game, as well as completely leap over a number of challenges where I was supposed to slog my way through crowded areas.
If the player can literally “peace out” of half the content and be rewarded as if he’s legitimately completed it, that’s bad game design.
Speaking of bad game design, let’s talk about the boss battles.
Remember in the Arbiter’s Grounds where you had to use the spinning top thing to slide down the sand slope to hit the spine of the dragon skeleton? Remember how cool that was? And then afterward where you had to jump from track to track dodging attacks and spikes in order to climb high enough to launch yourself from the track to hit it? That was awesome!
How about the flying boss in the City in the Sky where you had to climb up with the double hookshot? That rocked. They were scripted in the sense that there were limited methods to win, but they were super creative and, more importantly, fun.
Bosses in Breath of the Wild? Timed dodges. That’s it. No wacky cool mechanics. Just timed dodges over and over and then wail on the thing once you stun it or there’s an opening.
Basically, totally forgettable.
Gannon himself at the end of the game? Literally just a big bad. No talking, no character at all. He appears, goes “rawr!,” and the fight begins.
I’m sorry, but that’s embarrassing.
Breath of the Wild, for all it’s open world awesomeness, is much smaller than it seems. There are tons of Shrines and random items to find, but that’s all window dressing. The core of the Zelda franchise is dungeon crawling. Without this fundamental ingredient, Breath of the Wild left me feeling severely dissatisfied.
This game is getting perfect scores from a not insignificant number of people. I have no idea why that is. In my opinion, anyone who says that Breath of the Wild is a 10/10 game is either:
- In the honeymoon phase and wearing rose tinted glasses that are letting him/her overlook BotW’s major flaws
- a Nintendo fanboy/girl who believes they can do no wrong
That’s it. I’m sure there are a few people out there who genuinely think BotW is a perfect game, but anyone who does think that has a fundamental disconnect with what makes Zelda gameplay special in the first place. Without any meaningful dungeon crawling to speak of, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild is a Zelda game in name only.
As cool as it is, and it is super cool, I think this is one of the weaker entries in the series.
If the next Zelda game finds a way to mix the open world with traditional dungeons, then I’d argue that’d be a perfect Zelda game.
…at the very least, it would be a Zelda game.
Someone the other day asked me to give BotW an “out of ten” rating. I think I said it was a 6/10 for me at the time. The more I think about it though…
5/10? That sounds about right.
If you love the Zelda franchise, you will love the design of the open world, the immersive environmental sound design, and all of the goodies to discover, I know I did. Unfortunately, you will hate the fact that it has zero dungeons, I did that too.
If you can overlook that flaw, then I’d argue we love Zelda for different reasons.
I wanted to love it, I really did. I just can’t.
While the divine beast dungeons/bosses are definitely a low point of the game, I feel that given how BotW was designed, it was a necessary sacrifice.
As you stated, there are plenty of memorable boss fights in previous entries. Yet, each one was specifically made to make use of a key item in that specific dungeon. I would argue that this makes developers set up artificial gates, otherwise what’s the point of the key item outside of that dungeon?
On the other hand, BotW encourages the player to explore wherever they please using whatever method they want. You could travel to locations anywhere on the map right from the beginning (with the exception of having to collect all key items in the Sheikah Slate before leaving the Plateau). To have to bring the key items concept into this game would run against its intention of letting people feel like as though they are (mostly) free to do whatever they please.
Could they have at least made the dungeons/bosses better? Of course. However, at least the player can choose how to progress through the game as opposed to “you don’t have the key item, so you can’t go here”.
There’s an incredibly simple solution to that problem: give each dungeon a key item or two that is required only to beat the dungeon it’s found in. That way, the dungeon itself can have more creative puzzles and a boss battle that is actually fun. That would still preserve the “do stuff in any order” gameplay without having to sacrifice having a more traditional, quality dungeon crawling/boss fighting experience.
So something like Medli/Makar but with items instead? That does sound like a good solution. Hopefully doesn’t lead people into complaining about the items being a one-time use though. :p
I would be fine with unique items from dungeons that were necessary to complete shrines. You go into a shrine look at it for a bit, go “maybe later with different equipment or fresh eyes” and you leave. I would still be churning it over in my head afterwards while I explore. I’d argue this improves the puzzle experience. And since we have teleports to activated shrines, there is no cost to coming back later. None. You could do two dungeons, sweep a few shrines that are available, go explore some more or whatever.
Ganon would still need to be beatable without equipment, but as long as I felt like I had options in how to fight, that would be swag.
I actually agree with you that this game is zelda in name only. Other then the few main characters you meet in this game the rest are generic npcs. And the only one I will remember is the prince zora guy. And that will be mostly because of the internet memes surrounding him. Twilight Princess will always be dear in my heart, so if they could combine the story and set pieces/dungeons of that game in the sprawling open world that this BOTW did then I would call that the best zelda game.
Can’t disagree with you, I think we have the same feelings here. TP was great in that outside of a too-long tutorial sequence and the fetch-quest halfway through the game, it was dungeon after dungeon after dungeon, all with some kick-butt items like the spinning top, the ball and chain, the double hookshot and amazingly creative and fun boss battles.
Skyward Sword built on that progress by having stunningly fantastic dungeons and bosses as well.
Combine that with Breath of the Wild’s open world and I think that’s a winner.
Just because its called the legend of zelda doesn’t mean that it has to be a classic zelda game. giving a game a prominent/famous name is just baiting for buyers (who know the older titles).
sometimes the “new” game turns out great (resi 4/7), still quite good but far from as great as its predecessor (MGS5), and sadly sometimes its utterly crap (silent hill 4). after 25 years of playing video games it takes me only a few looks to decide if the new game is a good one or a bad one, despite of its name.
I think when Nintendo calls a game “The Legend of Zelda: yada yada” and it’s a major release that’s been in the works for five years and it’s being advertised as a legit Zelda game, anything but a legit Zelda game is straight-up dishonest.
Remember when Nintendo released a non-traditional Zelda game? They called it “Hyrule Warriors.” They didn’t call it “The Legend of Zelda: Hyrule Warriors,” just “Hyrule Warriors” They did that because HW was not a dungeon crawling, classic Zelda experience. BotW is not a dungeon crawling, classic Zelda experience either, so in my opinion it shouldn’t have been advertised as one.
Resident Evil 4 & 7 contained the main ingredients of Resident Evil, which are Survival and Zombies (not exactly zombies in those games, but you know what I mean).
The main ingredients of Zelda are exploration, cool items, and dungeon crawling. Breath of the Wild only has exploration. If it’s missing vital components of the franchise, it’s not a good entry to the franchise.
Give Horizon: Zero Dawn a shot. Sounds like what you’re missing may be found there. 🙂
Don’t have a PS4, but I’m sure I’ll eventually have the opportunity to play it!
Dungeon crawling is severely overrated, in my opinion. It has always been the part I enjoyed the less on Zelda games, especially in those entries that just repeated the same mechanics and/or puzzles in them. Finding your way on the overworld from one dungeon to the next, though? 10/10, now THAT’S an adventure and the only reason I keep loving Zelda games.
I don’t intend to knock your opinion, but help me understand.
If you don’t enjoy dungeon crawling, you don’t enjoy the central focus of Zelda gameplay. Did you find the dungeons in Oot, MM, WW, TP, and SS all a chore?
You also say 10/10. That mean’s a *flawless* experience. Do you legitimately mean to say that Breath of the Wild didn’t have a single flaw that took away from the experience at all?
For sake of argument, I’ll give you that you don’t like traditional Zelda dungeons and therefore BotW’s lack of them wasn’t an issue for you. That said, here are some other flaws in the game that negatively affected my experience:
– Much of the time spent playing was on traveling. I got a kick out of climbing and all that, but too much time was spent going from place to place as opposed to actually completing shrines/quests/etc
– The story suffers due to it’s non-linearity. Outside of cosmetic changes to specific regions, there is no feeling of progression towards the final goal as areas are completed.
– There is a lack of fun items: no hookshot, iron boots, no ball and chain, no grappling hook, no instruments, no slingshot, etc.
– There are major graphical hiccups where the frame rate will lock into 20fps, and sometimes will plummet to a slideshow-esque frame rate during certain combat encounters.
– Every boss battle comes down to timed dodging, zero creativity.
– Rivali’s Gale let’s the player cheese their way through a bulk of the game’s content
– Some of the voice acting is good, but Zelda’s is pretty lackluster.
– While there are lots of Korok things to discover, it’d be nice if there were also pieces of heart out in the world. Getting heart containers only through defeating beasts and turning in Soul Orbs or whatever they’re called is lame.
– The open world is primarily filled in with copy-pasted Moblin camps.
– They have to do the cutscene for *every* blood moon? Really? I know you can skip it once it starts, but it’s incredibly distracting to have your gameplay stop every time for a scene you’re just going to skip. Also, you know how the player knows when there’s a blood moon? They know because THERE’S A BIG RED MOON IN THE SKY. BotW having the cutscene every time is essentially the game treating the player as stupid.
– The open world and quest system is very Elder Scrolls like. However, ES games give you multiple large campaigns in addition to all the little dungeons and short sidequests. BotW gives you one lame main campaign, and then small dungeons and short sidequests. There isn’t enough content, it’s just a big world to run around in.
So again… 10/10… flawless experience… there wasn’t a single thing you didn’t like about the game that took away from the fun? Not one thing?
Help me understand.
Wtf dude, I meant the 10/10 as a meme and just for the “going from one dungeon to the next” mechanic… there’s nothing to understand, stop overthinking this xD
But… what if we want our steaks raw?
Then we will get a bacterial infection!
it’s weird because i keep hearing this about dungeons being the central part of zelda games, but that was never the case for me ( for the 3d ones at least). dungeons end up being fun once for me, the first time. I’ve replayed OoT and MM many times but the dungeons always are the parts i’m reluctant to do again …
As for BotW i’ve been at it 50-60hours, i haven’t done a story thing yet and it’s the most fun i’ve had with a 3d zelda since majora’s mask. I do agree it’s not flawless but i’ve haven’t encountered anything that seriously cut my enjoyment so far ( the blood moon cutscene does get boring).
It’s funny that you mention that dungeons are the core of Zelda… because the moment you mention that, you forget the very core of Breath of the Wild. Plain and simple, BotW was SUPPOSED to change up the very core of Zelda. It’s entire purpose is to break the mold of the games and create something completely new. BotW is supposed to take you back to what made Zelda a good series to begin with, and NOT to continue with the same broken and boring design that has plagued the Zelda series ever since Ocarina of Time showed up and destroyed what made Zelda games good to begin with.
Zelda games are meant to be an adventure. That’s why they’re in the “Adventure” genre. If I wanted dungeon crawling, I’d pick up an RPG. If I wanted a game about puzzles, I’d pick up a puzzle game like Bejeweled or Professor Layton. Zelda is about adventure. Zelda is about exploring the world. Zelda is about finding all of the little secrets here and there and having fun while doing it…
Every Zelda game did this until Ocarina of Time appeared. OoT showed up with its tiny overworld, very closed world, and the fact that there was so little to do outside of the dungeons… and everyone called it a Masterpiece… 10/10… BEST GAME EVER MADE! Yet I play OoT and wonder why anyone even likes the game? The graphics looks like trash, they’re not even good for its time (Mario 64 is WAY more impressive looking, and it came out 2 years before OoT, so yeah…). The dungeons were pretty boring after you completed them the first time. There was almost nothing to explore (But Sureen! There’s a million tiny little holes in the world! And they’re full of…) Nothing. They’re full of nothing. How many holes in OoT actually had more than one room? Weren’t a place that gave you Rupees, or had cows? You could get a fish in almost every single one cause they all shared the same design… There was NOTHING to explore.
Breath of the Wild took one look at Ocarina of Time and said “So… all you had were dungeons? Well, how about I give the players something to actually do in the game?” Breath of the Wild has shrines. (But Sureen, shrines aren’t dungeons and they’re all one room things). There’s also 160 of them… Would you really want the game to have 160 dungeons in it? Also, have you explored all 160 shrines? Have you found all 900 korok seeds? There is SO much to explore in the game. There is SO much to see. There are SO many things to do…
Breath of the Wild is NOT a Zelda game like any other. If you are comparing BotW to any other Zelda game, you’re really not paying attention to the very CORE of the PURPOSE of the game. Breath of the Wild is meant to CHANGE Zelda. It’s meant to be the new “This is what Zelda is” because, after 20 years… the franchise has become stale. Breath of the Wild is the greatest Zelda game so far because, like Ocarina of Time, it challenged everything about Zelda and changed it, and if anyone is going to herald OoT as the best game ever because it did that, then turn around and complain that BotW did that same thing… Well, that’s literally what you call “hypocrisy”. Breath of the Wild is fantastic and wonderful, and it’s because it DIDN’T continue in the shoes of it’s ancestors.
Right! BotW is a fundamental change in direction from what Zelda gameplay is all about. BotW is not about dungeons, it’s about an open world. While I definitely liked the open world, I don’t think that it needed to sacrifice quality dungeons; it could have done both. Since it completely ignores the core of traditional Zelda gameplay, I don’t consider BotW to be a traditional Zelda game and don’t think that it should have a “The Legend of Zelda” prefix to its title in the same way that Hyrule Warriors didn’t.
You say that BotW is meant to create something totally new, but in the very next sentence say that it’s meant to take the player back to what made Zelda good to begin with. Which is it?
While playing BotW, I was thinking to myself how it did feel like the original LoZ, so if anything BotW is a modern technology recreation of the original NES game, it’s not anything truly new. It might have broken the mold of the last 20 years of Zelda games, but BotW is basically a Zelda-skinned Elder Scrolls with less content, let’s be realistic here.
Comparing OoT and BotW in terms of how much there is to explore is a little disingenuous. OoT was on a 32MB cartridge, there’s only so much that could be done. At the time Ocarina was *immense* and felt like nothing that came before it. OoT felt just as big then as BotW feels big now. BotW is comparatively huge, sure, but a lot of the content in the world is copy pasted moblin camps. Those Korok seeds? They’re not unique at all. Sure the first bunch you find are all novel, but the more you get the more you realize those are copy pasted challenges as well: pick up a rock, fly to this area in a certain amount of time, shoot some targets… over and over. Having 900 of them is focusing on quantity, not quality.
I’m not arguing that BotW needs 160 dungeons either, I just wanted (and expected) eight or nine cohesive, long dungeons. Having those peppered around the map would not sacrifice having an open world.
Finally, I love Zelda. I love the games of the last twenty years, they didn’t feel stale for me as each one built upon and improved the quality of the dungeons and bosses. Breath of the Wild unfortunately doesn’t do it for me.
All that said, I still like it, it’s a good game! I just don’t see it as this 10/10 perfect, flawless experience that everyone is gushing over, that’s all. If for you it’s a 10/10, awesome! I’m super happy that you love it, never let anyone else’s opinions tell you how to feel. No one can take away the fun you had and continue to have playing it!
I think that almost everyone has missed the point that there ARE very complex dungeons in BOTW. In reality, each domain is THE dungeon and the divine beasts are the boss. There is so much to do and explore in each domain that if you rush through and head straight for the boss you miss most of the fun of the domain/dungeon. Instead of keys to rooms, you have quests to get items like shock arrows in the Zora domain (I.E. the water temple!) where you have to fight mini bosses (lynel anyone??).
I am an old gamer (I played LOZ on the original NES when it came out… Had an Atari 2600; Pong anyone??) and have played many adventure games (Ultima I on an old 8086… boy am I dating myself) and look at the over all structure of the game as I am playing it. In BOTW, I noticed that they really did keep the same elements of many LOZ games but made them new and slightly different which is why I enjoy this game so much. Ultimately it comes down to your personal style of game play and what type of games you like to play; if old school dungeon crawling in an RPG is what you like then BOTW is probably not what you will like.
Once I had completed two of the Divine Beasts and had the chilling realization that these were as close to dungeons as I was going to get, I tried to view the regions as the dungeons. However I’m going to say that even if that were the case, they fall spectacularly flat.
Simply put, BotW’s Zora region will not go down as more memorable than the Water Temple. Period. The Water Temple is legendary. The whole getting to Zora’s Domain part in BotW? I completely bypassed it. Yeah, it’s raining so you can’t climb… but you can use Rivali’s Gale to jump over the whole thing.
When you can jump over half the content, that’s bad design.
Well, could argue that Divine beast dungeons aint that much of copy-pasta as you clai, sure each is simple and short but thematically each worked fine and layout + mechanic of reaching each control point was partially interesting (in ruta working on water wheel and trunk was quite different that working on camels rotating barrel or fire ones dark room start) open chest types are one that usually are hard to locate or quest trial is dungeon … if you want somewhat challenging and pretty clever one: try eventide island … it has very interesting trial)